CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia

[elabuza]

One other option to replace ventilator might be air compressors.  While the can provide excessive pressure they should be able to be regulated down to something acceptable.

[andyed671]

Thank you for this thread. You're providing guidance I can't seem to find anywhere else. You are very close to answering the questions I most want answered, but we're not quite there, so here goes... 

Given the following scenario:
-- I'm quarantined in my house with my wife—just the two of us
-- Hospitals are overwhelmed and ventilators are out of the question
-- Either my wife or I (or both) contract the virus and are in respiratory distress

Under such circumstances here are the big questions:

-- Will using a CPAP machine help someone in respiratory distress, including my wife, a non-user of CPAP? (I'm hearing YES, It's better than nothing. Correct?)

-- Will using a CPAP machine increase the danger to the other person in the house, due to aerosolization of the virus? If so, can anything be done about this? (Staying in different rooms or on different floors? Adapting a SoClean to reduce aerosolization? Using a fan? )

I'm not looking for medical advice or sure things, just some practical ways to stay alive in dire circumstances.

[SarcasticDave94]

Given the scenario you supplied:

• yes a CPAP class device should help breathing become easier, I would suggest monitoring those who are connected to give comfort feedback
  
• increasing danger to others seems not to be a real high danger, at least not yet, alternately it's assuming less danger than not doing what you deem necessary to vent via CPAP, AKA don't let the possible risk stop you from using CPAP, just use common sense cautions
  
• Not to get on a no SoClean soapbox, but any extra cost item like these so called cleaners is not needed, apply KISS (keep it simple stupid) as in don't over-complicate it, you're in MacGyver mode so keep things as simple as possible
  
• if you feel better for doing it, implement a vent fan out a window in the sick room, me personally, I think it's going against KISS
  

[DeepBreathing]

What is the possibility of using the SoClean equipment with its cleaning abilities to destroys 99.9% of PAP germs, bacteria, and other pathogens?

"Ozone Concentration:

10 ppm @ 5 min when measured 1 cm from the ozone generator output tubing interface on the SoClean device, assuming the starting ozone concentration is < 0.3 ppm prior to turning the SoClean device on."
from the SoClean Manual

Start by removing the Removable Hose Slot Plug, which allows you to set up the SoClean device on either the right or left side of your CPAP machine. Place a new flexible tubing in the Removable Hose Slot Plug. And then the other end of the new flexible tubing to the facial mask being used?

Attached is a rough drawing.


Question is, how long a period of time can a person breathe in the

---

Left off final question;
How long can a person breathe in the air mixture from the SoClean machine?

If what you're proposing is what I think it is, I would rather breathe the virus. If I read this right, you're suggesting feeding the output of the CPAP into the So Clean, where it gets mixed with ozone, then breathe the air/ozone mixture? I suspect you wouldn't keep it up more than a minute or so as ozone is extremely pungent.

This setup might kill the virus, but it might also kill you.

In the troposphere near the Earth’s surface, the natural concentration of ozone is about 10 parts per billion (0.000001 percent). According to the Environmental Protection Agency, exposure to ozone levels of greater than 70 parts per billion for 8 hours or longer is unhealthy[1]. Such concentrations occur in or near cities during periods where the atmosphere is warm and stable. The harmful effects can include throat and lung irritation or aggravation of asthma or emphysema.

https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/facts/SH.html

[Gary Mussar]

The first time I was in the ICU after my triple bypass (1983), I wanted to use my CPAP but the nurse said "You don't need that. you just need Oxygen", and wouldn't hook it up for me. Well the next night and every time in an ICU since, I have INSISTED on my CPAP WITH AN O2 adapter so they can apply Oxygen when my saturation is low. I can say with experience THIS MAKES THE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE to my breathing, and to my recovery and lung function - even recovering from double Bronchitis.

I have had my CPAP with me for 2 different surgeries. The first time I woke up with just O2. I felt uncomfortable. I asked to use the CPAP (didn't have the O2 adapter then). It made me far more comfortable and my O2 saturation improved significantly.

The second time was for open heart surgery. I woke up intubated. When they decided to remove the tube, I asked to hook up the CPAP with O2 adapter. They had no issue with that.

[SuperSleeper]

If what you're proposing is what I think it is, I would rather breathe the virus. If I read this right, you're suggesting feeding the output of the CPAP into the So Clean, where it gets mixed with ozone, then breathe the air/ozone mixture? I suspect you wouldn't keep it up more than a minute or so as ozone is extremely pungent.

This setup might kill the virus, but it might also kill you.

Yeah, allow me to quote that again...  I would think using SoClean in this manner (breathing in the Ozone) is VERY dangerous.

From the EPA, (here):

"The same chemical properties that allow high concentrations of ozone to react with organic material outside the body give it the ability to react with similar organic material that makes up the body, and potentially cause harmful health consequences. When inhaled, ozone can damage the lungs. Relatively low amounts can cause chest pain, coughing, shortness of breath and throat irritation. Ozone may also worsen chronic respiratory diseases such as asthma and compromise the ability of the body to fight respiratory infections. People vary widely in their susceptibility to ozone. Healthy people, as well as those with respiratory difficulty, can experience breathing problems when exposed to ozone. Exercise during exposure to ozone causes a greater amount of ozone to be inhaled, and increases the risk of harmful respiratory effects. Recovery from the harmful effects can occur following short-term exposure to low levels of ozone, but health effects may become more damaging and recovery less certain at higher levels or from longer exposures (US EPA, 1996a, 1996b)."

[Gideon]

Melman,
Question on So-Clean and other ozone-based 'sanitizers'. In your oppinion,
Ignoring the potential damage to our devices and the introduction of ozone into our bedrooms,
and considering that this is in a situation where we must use our machines to treat ourselves because other (medical) resources are not available.
Will these machines provide any assistance in removing/killing live virus (Covid-19) in our systems?

[MikeBY]

Just a couple of thoughts..
In the situation where you are refused medical treatment.. otherwise always seek medical treatment from your personal doctor and/or hospital.

When you increase pressure, the volume of air is going to the aureoles that are still open and healthy. Too much peak pressure will over expand them and blow them out. You won't survive that, so putting your cpap on max pressure may not be a good idea. PEEP pressure will help keep aureoles open and may help collapsed structures to open up.
Increased Tidal volume will not help CO2 washout. You actually need more rapid respiration rate and lower tidal volume. Excessive CO2 leads to respiratory acidosis.
Increased rate, lower volume is what you want, not maximum pressure. Where should PEEP be? normal is up to 5, In this case, it needs to go higher.. but don't max out the machine as that will likely cause lung damage.

The other thing is that Non invasive ventilation causes aerosols that will contaminate the room. This virus can live in the air for 3 hours. Using CPAP while infected will cause the spread of the virus, so you MUST isolate and use this only in an isolated room and away from other people. Don't put your family at risk !!

[andyed671]

Thanks folks. This is really thoughtful and helpful, and I hope it comes to the aid someone, preferably not me. So here's another question: 

As I have an extra machine, would my wife benefit if she had pneumonia and couldn't get help as well? I'm guessing yes, but is there a catch?

[Garald]

After reading your E-mail last night I asked the same questions.  There are many devices that could be available at little cost.  I believe the c-pap
could possibly be used in conjunction with nebulizer treatments to augment the use of ventilators when before or after severe treatments are  required  ?