CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia

[Rvosatka]

I am a healthcare professional.  This is not medical advice.  This is opinion.

We will run out of ventilators:

Problem 1: CPAP creates aerosols.
You cannot use CPAP/ BiPAP in a hospital setting.  It creates aerosols that linger for hours.  Once a room becomes a CPAP room for a Covid patient, uninfected individuals cannot enter for a long indeterminate period of time.

Problem 2: O2 -  You need to be aware of O2 potential fire-related dangers.  O2 does not burn but increases the flammability of objects nearby.

Problem 3: Patients with Covid need O2, not only pressure.  Pressure can open airways and respiratory units (alveoli) reducing intrapulmonary shunt (that is what makes people blue).  O2 is necessary to help since pressure alone cannot remove the fluid in lungs.

Problem 4: CPAP can cause collapsed lungs. People with collapsed lungs on CPAP can die rapidly (minutes).  

Problem 5: You cannot eat while on CPAP.   You can slip a tube under the mask and supply fluids.  If you can get the tube into the stomach (if you really know what you are doing) and are using a tube that won't rip anything on the way to the stomach, you can provide some nutrition (like Ensure).  Most of you will not be able to do.  If patient is awake and able to swallow, you can provide ORS (WHO oral rehydration salts - recipe from stuff you got at home is readily available).  Sips, wait for patient to swallow and ask for more, repeat.

More problems: you bet.

[jennie54]

Reading this post is beyond scary- being that I have both OSA and moderate COPD makes me extremely nervous - especially since I am in the 65+ group and have other medical problems. I am staying home and making do with what I have, but I'm still assuming I have just as much risk of getting the Covid 19 virus as those who still venture out into public and have social contact. I have an old machine from 5 years ago - the Philips Respironics System One. How and will that help me with this virus if I do contract it? Or should I just give in to the fact that I will be one of the high risk groups that have a very great risk of dying when I get the virus? Very scared!

[70sSanO]

I think the intent of this thread is to give people here some options to think about should that person not be able to get into a hospital.

I don’t think anyone would choose a CPAP over being in a hospital environment on a ventilator.

If I or my wife gets sick, and we can’t get into a hospital, I’m not going to just sit around, we will do our best and turn it over to God.

I have no concern over getting the virus from being in our house. If we can get essentials, we can hole up as long as we need to.

My concern and prayers are with those who must be out in the public.

John

[OpalRose]

I am a healthcare professional.  This is not medical advice.  This is opinion.

We will run out of ventilators:

Problem 1: CPAP creates aerosols.
You cannot use CPAP/ BiPAP in a hospital setting.  It creates aerosols that linger for hours.  Once a room becomes a CPAP room for a Covid patient, uninfected individuals cannot enter for a long indeterminate period of time.

Problem 2: O2 -  You need to be aware of O2 potential fire-related dangers.  O2 does not burn but increases the flammability of objects nearby.

Problem 3: Patients with Covid need O2, not only pressure.  Pressure can open airways and respiratory units (alveoli) reducing intrapulmonary shunt (that is what makes people blue).  O2 is necessary to help since pressure alone cannot remove the fluid in lungs.

Problem 4: CPAP can cause collapsed lungs. People with collapsed lungs on CPAP can die rapidly (minutes).  

Problem 5: You cannot eat while on CPAP.   You can slip a tube under the mask and supply fluids.  If you can get the tube into the stomach (if you really know what you are doing) and are using a tube that won't rip anything on the way to the stomach, you can provide some nutrition (like Ensure).  Most of you will not be able to do.  If patient is awake and able to swallow, you can provide ORS (WHO oral rehydration salts - recipe from stuff you got at home is readily available).  Sips, wait for patient to swallow and ask for more, repeat.

More problems: you bet.

Hi Rvosatka,

I'm sure you missed the point of this thread.  Go back and read Post #1.  

We are attempting to address our concerns that a hospital setting may not be an option for many of us if we were to get this dreaded virus, and have to stay home and take care of ourselves or a loved one.

I'm not a health care professional, but would like to address your "problem" list. Also my opinions.

Problem #1
I don't know if that's true or not, but again, we are looking at a situation where we would not be in a hospital setting.

Problem #2
I believe most here know the dangers of using Oxygen incorrectly.  

Problem #3
Agree, most Covid patients would need Oxygen, but again, we are trying to brain storm what we could do if left on our own without having access to a hospital.

Problem #4
I've never heard of Cpap use causing a collapsed lung with normal usage.  Maybe you would like to explain that...
Are you specifically saying that a Covid patient would be susceptible to a collapsed lung if they used a cpap?   Personally, I would take my chances if that's all I had to use and left to my own devices.

Problem #5
Again, we are not talking about a patient in a hospital setting, but someone diagnosed with this virus and told to stay home and administer self care.

The only real problem I see (that you didn't list as a Problem) is your statement:

"We will run out of ventilators."

[SuperSleeper]

I am a healthcare professional.  This is not medical advice.  This is opinion.

Problem 1: CPAP creates aerosols.
You cannot use CPAP/ BiPAP in a hospital setting.  It creates aerosols that linger for hours.  Once a room becomes a CPAP room for a Covid patient, uninfected individuals cannot enter for a long indeterminate period of time.

Okay, FIRST, anyone on any public forum can CLAIM to be "a health care professional".  I would caution our members that just because someone CLAIMS to be a "health care profession" does not mean that they ARE INDEED a health care professional.  

We've had issues before with people coming on Apnea Board and claiming to be doctors.  One such fellow even fooled many people for months and we found out later that he was an actor, using his "role" as a "doctor" on the forums to "practice up on his acting skills" and his ability to fool people with his "wonderful skills" as an actor.  Do not simply take a statement like "I'm a health care professional" as truth, because ANYONE can claim such a thing on an Internet forum.   What this appears to be is someone attempting to give their own post credibility over all others, when in fact ALL posts on Apnea Board should be taken with an eye of skepticism, including mine.  I'm NOT a health care professional, and for all we know NEITHER is Rvosatka.

You're a health care professional, Rvosatka?  Provide some evidence to me privately, otherwise I'm going to assume that you're spouting off that wild claim for your own purposes to lend credibility to your post.  I noticed that you failed to mentioned what specific type of health care professional you were.  Why wouldn't you mention that?  Before replying here, please provide evidence that you're a health care professional.  We're not going to have our forum members fooled by someone who is not what they claim to be, as NONE of this thread or anything on Apnea Board is meant to take the place of medical advice.  So your claim that you ARE a medical professional is not going to stand here unchallenged without evidence.

SECOND, Rvosatka, you are absolutely WRONG that CPAP/BiPAP cannot be used in a hospital setting.  They are used ALL THE TIME, and ventilators as well.  That is utter B.S. and again, indicates to me that you are likely NOT a health care professional as you claim.

Problem 3: Patients with Covid need O2, not only pressure.  Pressure can open airways and respiratory units (alveoli) reducing intrapulmonary shunt (that is what makes people blue).  O2 is necessary to help since pressure alone cannot remove the fluid in lungs.

THIRD:  I'm sorry but neither pressure nor O2 will remove fluid in the lungs.  Other supplementary methods are needed for that.  Again, illogical statements that do not sound like they're coming from a real health care professional.

Problem 4: CPAP can cause collapsed lungs. People with collapsed lungs on CPAP can die rapidly (minutes).

  

FOURTH:  Sitting at home doing nothing because the health care industry is unable to take care of you due to being overwhelmed is NOT an option during a time when the hospitals are unable to take on new patients.  And the statement that "CPAP can cause collapsed lungs" is utterly ridiculous.  If someone can't be admitted to the hospital due to overcrowding, and their lung collapses, they'll likely die anyway.  This is a stupid reason for not attempting to use CPAP to mitigate pneumonia in an emergency.

Problem 5: You cannot eat while on CPAP.

Thank you Captain Obvious.  We're too stupid to realize that fact, I guess.  Good of you as a "health care professional" to point out this fact to us lowly peons who didn't know this "secret" that you've now revealed to us.   

More problems: you bet.

The more likely problem is that someone is trying to derail this discussion by placing fear into our members with a claim that "I'm a health care professional" so what we're trying to do is not to be attempted by mere mortals.

Folks, take what this member says with a grain of salt.  We have NO clue if they are a health care professional or not, and many of his statements are very suspect and lacking in basic logic.

Likewise, take my statements for what they are:  a personal opinion, not medical advice.  

Sorry for the interjection here, but I do have to remind our members that we have people at times who fake a persona for their own purposes.

Back to our conversation....

[mhehe]

The tone of the conversation from the Apnea Board Administrators is appalling! You think you know everything! Please be RESPECTFUL of others.

[SuperSleeper]

The tone of the conversation from the Apnea Board Administrators is appalling! You think you know everything! Please be RESPECTFUL of others.

Please be advised that you do not know all of what's going on here.

We have ZERO tolerance for people who claim to be "health care professionals" in an attempt to fool our members with completely obvious falsehoods that invoke fear into our elderly members with complete & utter nonsense (as this person has done).  THAT is what is appalling.

We have an obligation to point out the fact that Apnea Board does not provide "medical advice" and the fact that people in the past have made false claims of being "doctors", and gave out potentially damaging advice all the while claiming to be an expert.

When people come on Apnea Board with such claims, our members are more likely to take their advice over the average member, simply because they've CLAIMED to be a "medical professional".  THAT is what is dangerous, since anyone can come anonymously onto a public forum and CLAIM to be a medical professional.  That does NOT mean that they ARE a medical professional, and if we allow such claims to go unchallenged with no evidence whatsoever as to the validity of that claim, we would be doing a great disservice to our members.

That is all I'm going to say about this subject.  This is outside the scope of this thread, so let's get back to the actual goal of coming up with methods to HELP people, rather than using scare tactics against people who simply will not benefit from such tactics.

Enough of the thread-drift.  Our policies here are not up for discussion.  If you feel something needs to expressed, feel free to write to me privately via PMs.

[SarcasticDave94]

An example of my ASV in a hospital setting: about a year ago I stayed at the hospital for observation, a 1 week stint where I had severe back pain from vertebrae fractures, a stay which included kyphoplasty spinal surgery on L2 and L4 to repair/reshape, used ASV during that surgery. Also in hospital last July for pneumonia, 48 hour hospital stay with ASV use after being taken off oxygen that I was on for the first 24 hrs.

Two other instances: my ASV went into surgery with me for the spinal cord stimulant implant done as 2 parts, not used but it was there in case the surgical team felt it was needed.

I am pretty sure no CPAP will collapse a lung, but the RT's at the DME will tell us the CPAP can be misused by adjusting our own pressures and blow the lungs up.

I do not appreciate scare tactics nor lies.

[fred vanderburg]

I wish I could help and this makes a lot of sense considering the circumstances that we may be turned away from a hospital for lack of ventilators and over-crowding. Please keep me posted; this is interesting to me as a cpap user.

[SarcasticDave94]

Stay tuned, Fred. Despite rumors to the contrary here and there, the Apnea Board has a mission to help. Since we've been doing just that successfully for quite a few years, I'd have to say we've gotten a few things right.