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+--- Thread: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia (/Thread-CPAP-use-for-Coronavirus-mitigation-severe-pneumonia)
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - SuperSleeper - 03-21-2020
Thanks for the post, Fred. I really hope what we're discussing in this thread will not be necessary, but at some point, we may be in a position where we have no other practical choices and we'll be left to our own devices.
Better to discuss these ideas now, when we can get many eyes on the issue, so that we're not running around trying to figure it out all by ourselves in a time of panic.
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - RMR - 03-21-2020
Going to pipe in here armed with just a little knowledge of of the massive amount of knowledge of what is really needed to determine if any type of breathing aid apparatus will help in solving the Covid 19 shortages problem. No, I'm not dissing the idea, just thinking on the common sense side of things.
First, lets do some fact checking. Standard apnea ventilators of any type DO create an environment that is NOT compatible with creating and keeping a sterile environment which in this case would be required to prevent further spread of the virus. So to use such a device in a none hospital setting would require additional people who would need additional biohazard protective wear which again is already in short supply to work with the patient putting more strain on an already strained system. That being said, there are ways of getting around some of these problems, but that again requires manpower and resources. I hope you see where this is going...
Secondly, There are just a few more people with PHD behind their names that do have the knowledge about these devices, and their pros and cons for use as a substitute ventilator. Instead of asking a bunch of laypersons to make suppositions for which their knowledge may or may not be limited of the question being asked, would it not be more pertinent and who knows, maybe helpful to find someone with the needed knowledge and propose the idea to them?
All the being said, Wilbur Wright said two years before he and his brother flew the first airplane that, and I quote, "Man will not fly for 50 years.".
Robert
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - Sheepish - 03-21-2020
(03-21-2020, 01:42 PM)SuperSleeper Wrote: we'll be left to our own devices
Well said!
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - SuperSleeper - 03-21-2020
RMR - Yes, absolutely would be fantastic if real, verifiable health care professionals would take it upon themselves to come up with viable solutions for alternatives to standard hospital ventilation, and come here to help us do what we're attempting to do: provide worst-case scenario protocols for patients to self-treat at home when they have no other alternative, using equipment that most sleep apnea patients already have on hand.
I keep having to repeat my reminder numerous times in this thread, and I understand that since it's a huge thread, but I would remind folks yet again that we're going outside what most medical professionals would deem "safe", "standard" or even "proven" when we discuss these things.
But as we've found out for many years here on Apnea Board, most "professionals" are too caught up in the mindset of using standard, existing hospital protocols and procedures for dealing with medical issues, most of which require a full hospital staff and a stockroom full of medical equipment and supplies (as you implied). The vast majority of those professions seem "stuck" into thinking that anything outside of peer-reviewed studies and "time-tested", modern hospital methodologies equates to introducing an unacceptable risk to patients.
Again, we're talking the equivalent to "ditch medicine" here, for a time when standard hospital treatment becomes unavailable to us.
If you know of any sincere, open-minded health care professional who is willing to prove their honest credentials and help out with this project, by all means have them send an email to me so we can make sure they're not simply another scammer. We've had a few of those types already.
The problem is most of them are closed-minded and can't think outside the box, and even more problematic is that they think that patients cannot provide any form of self-treatment at all unless and until they've gone through the "formal" medical educational institutions first. The people who've been on Apnea Board for years now, know for a fact what I'm talking about. Many "professionals" talk big, tout their degrees and experience and high level of "expertise", when in fact, we KNOW that many of them have less knowledge about CPAP machines than many people who frequently help people on Apnea Board.
Not true in every case, obviously, but those types still belittle our efforts here claiming that "patients should not be adjusting their own CPAP pressure!" or other such nonsense that they know nothing about.
I hope that some medical professionals will prove me wrong, forget about "standard hospital protocols and procedures", and start helping the patients who may be forced to help themselves from home, using only the supplies & equipment they have on-hand. We're tired of hearing that "you can only do this properly in a hospital setting", in other words. That's not what this thread is about. This thread is about self-help, for a time when normal hospital settings become unavailable to us.
Until they forget about what's "normal" and they come here to help us figure out how to get home-based solutions to actually WORK for us, I'm not impressed. Their pleas of "this won't work", or "you can't do stuff like this outside of a hospital" are ridiculous, considering we may be moving into a time period where all of that "standard level of care" will vanish into a thick cloud of a completely overwhelmed medical system.
What we're doing here is serious business. We don't have time for all the naysayers who say it can't be done. In an emergency, people around the world have rallied together to do great things in the past, in spite of many "professions" or "experts" clamoring about how "it can't be done".
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - 70sSanO - 03-21-2020
The only problem with asking the professionals with PHD after their names is that not one of them has any solution when a loved one will not be admitted to a hospital.
When there are no beds, or medical equipment, or when that person just doesn’t meet the demographic qualifications for treatment.
If my only recourse is maybe an experimental drug and whatever equipment I have or nothing, my decision is easy.
John
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - CR Mc - 03-21-2020
I was wondering if CPAP machines could be used in a hospital setting, as a substitute for ventilators for those with respiratory symptoms. I am thinking of the case of covid-19 patients receiving CPAP machines from medical equipment suppliers as a substitute for hospital grade ventilators.
Regards, Craig McClure
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - Gary Mussar - 03-21-2020
(03-20-2020, 05:25 PM)dottore Wrote: It also seems like a CPAP could be configured to administer oxygen. When I started CPAP a couple decades ago my mask had ports. They could be used for administering oxygen. My current mask doesn't have ports and I'm not even sure that masks with ports still exist, but it shouldn't be hard to connect up an oxygen tank to a hose or maybe directly to the machine itself. My machine doesn't have any way to connect up a tank, but I'll bet there are some out there that do. Even if there aren't a little creative plumbing and a pressure regulator could do the job.
I bought an "Oxygen Supply Adapter for CPAP and BiPAP" from canadacpapsupply.com and used it while I was in the hospital recovering from surgery. You should be able to find this or something similar.
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - Luvmyzzz - 03-21-2020
KUDOS Supersleeper!! Your view on this reality, should make a lot of folks really really open their eyes!
Although I have been dealing with a lot of my own health issues, I worry more about my 84 year old Mother.
I have a kirby with a lot of attachments... what I'm saying is I will do experiments with this tool if you need,
or have ideas that will help others... I have some medical back ground (LPN&RN for over 33 years) so I
understand some functions of the body's ability to fight infection, and physical changes in the organs during
the struggle to fight these nasty over powering bacterias. I'm willing if needed, My help may be minor, but it's help
nonetheless. I will leave my email address to make sure my ability to add ideas, and anything else will be heard,
and used to look for assistance! Thank you for being on the ball for the folks who will look to you in this time of need.
Sincerely, Luvmyzzz (firstgibby@gmail.com)
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - archangle - 03-21-2020
(03-21-2020, 09:54 AM)Rvosatka Wrote: Problem 2: O2 - You need to be aware of O2 potential fire-related dangers. O2 does not burn but increases the flammability of objects nearby.
I don't understand this comment. Isn't a patient who needs a ventilator already going to be on O2? How is the CPAP machine going to make this worse?
It's very common to combine O2 and CPAP therapy at home. There's a standard adapter that lets you feed O2 into the hose after the CPAP machine has pressurized it. Bubbas all over America use it every night with very few fire disasters caused by it.
RE: CPAP use for Coronavirus mitigation & severe pneumonia - archangle - 03-21-2020
(03-21-2020, 12:12 PM)SuperSleeper Wrote: Okay, FIRST, anyone on any public forum can CLAIM to be "a health care professional". I would caution our members that just because someone CLAIMS to be a "health care profession" does not mean that they ARE INDEED a health care professional.
Even if the comments are wrong, don't forget how badly informed many HCP's are about CPAP or other areas outside of their narrow specialty.
It's very common for the nurses or doctors to tell patients and their family that the patient doesn't need CPAP because they're being fed oxygen.
This board is rife with other examples of horribly bad advice and practice about CPAP being performed while someone is in a hospital.