Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
I'm using a Resmed S9 Autoset machine. Is there a way to determine if I was awake or asleep at any given point, using either ResScan 4.3 or Sleepyhead? I wake a lot during the night, and I suspect that many, if not most, of my events occur when I'm trying to get back to sleep. I'd like to check that, but I don't know how to tell if I was awake or asleep at any given point.
Even better would be to be able to determine the stages of sleep I was in at various times, but I don't imagine that can be determined from the CPAP data alone. Is that correct?
I'm thinking of getting a Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset. Would it give me any additional information about whether I was awake or asleep, or the stage of sleep I was in?
Thanks for any info you can give me.
Barry
RE: Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
To my knowledge, unfortunately there is no way of being able to determine if you were asleep or not purely on the data whether using the S9 or Airsense 10. Some would say once your breathing evens out and the lines are more regular shaped but I don't believe that is wholly accurate either. Sleep stages are also not easily discernible. You would need to do a full sleep study for that.
RE: Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
Eventually, once you are stable in your treatment, you might get a strong correlation with a certain breathing pattern or pressure based on stages of sleep, but I'm not sufficiently learned to be able to go beyond that. Even so, I would not put much faith in drawing conclusions about whether-or-not I was asleep at Time X and not at Time Y, or whether I was in REM here and not there.
This is why the sleep labs have all the fancy equipment, including EEG to monitor brain waves. Many of the wearable tech gadgets, Fitbit, Apple Smart Watch, Samsung Galaxy smart watches (Samsung Gear), do a fairly good job of pinpointing when we fall asleep and when we awaken, but they otherwise can only tell when we are in 'deep' sleep and then 'light' sleep, presumably because our pulse rate and body movement changes, which they also measure. In the morning, you can look at a bar graph showing when you were in deep sleep vs. light, and when you began to sleep. If the two devices, PAP and wearable tech, have their times very close, it becomes easy to get a rough picture of when what was going on, and for how long.
RE: Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
I got a fitness tracker that reports sleep stages based on motion and heart rate variability to try to track my sleep. Comparing it to my sleepyhead data, though, hasn't been especially fruitful. I can tell from regular breathing patterns in my time-flow graph in sleepyhead when I'm asleep. What I can't tell as easily is when I'm awake. It's harder for me to eyeball the difference between disordered breathing while asleep and actually being awake. I can't necessarily tell if I was aroused from sleep, though any apnea suggests I did wake up enough to start breathing again. The sleep tracker can't tell the difference between me lying still while awake and me being asleep.
RE: Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
Thanks for the info and ideas. I didn't know that fitness trackers claim to be able to detect when you are asleep. I'll look at my graphs and see if anything strikes me, but I didn't want to try to re-invent the wheel if the method was well known. It isn't something I have to know, but I was curious.
Barry
10-17-2018, 10:19 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2018, 10:20 AM by Stom.)
RE: Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
(10-16-2018, 09:17 PM)barry15 Wrote: Thanks for the info and ideas. I didn't know that fitness trackers claim to be able to detect when you are asleep. I'll look at my graphs and see if anything strikes me, but I didn't want to try to re-invent the wheel if the method was well known. It isn't something I have to know, but I was curious.
Barry
All the fitness trackers that track sleep use your motion while sleeping to infer whether or not you are sleeping. Only some of them such as the FitBit Charge 3 and Vivosmart 4 do sleep stage tracking, by using heart rate data (heart rate variability, specifically, in the Garmin). You can also get other kinds of motion detectors for sleep tracking, ones you don't have to wear. Certa, the mattress company, has a super sensitive vibration detector you put under your mattress that can read respiration, heart rate and sleep. I'd have gotten that one, but I don't think it would have worked through my giant wedge pillow, but I could be wrong about that.
ResMed teamed up with Dr. Oz to market a radio frequency motion detector you put on your bed stand for sleep tracking. But ResMed also just left people who bought the earlier, cheaper, Dr. Oz-free version of the same high and dry by turning off the internet servers you need to get the data from your sleep tracker thingy to your phone. It's called SleepScore Max. But, confusingly, they also have an app that works on only a few phones called SleepScore that doesn't need the "Max" motion detector thingy. They claim to use the phones speaker and sound as sonar to detect sleep, but have only validated a few phones so far to use the app.
RE: Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
(10-16-2018, 11:22 AM)barry15 Wrote: Is there a way to determine if I was awake or asleep at any given point, using either ResScan 4.3 or Sleepyhead? I wake a lot during the night, and I suspect that many, if not most, of my events occur when I'm trying to get back to sleep. I'd like to check that, but I don't know how to tell if I was awake or asleep at any given point.
….
Thanks for any info you can give me.
Barry
Barry, I don't claim to know for sure--from graphical presentations of sleep data from my Autoset, oximeter and accelerometer's data presentations--what time I am asleep. However, though Board monitors have questioned or denied this, I believe that I have been awake until I see both, (1), a rise in the flat initial segment of the curve that shows my low beginning APAP pressure--10.4 cm in my case and, (2), a marked increase in, sometimes just the start up of, flow limitiations. Of course this is just anecdotal: may be true but only in my case, if true there as I believe. I've looked at and considered this in relation to what sleep I believe I have had many many times.
The image below illustrates this well, because, as rarely happens, I could not go back to sleep after a bathroom break and lay there awake for about an hour from about 0730-0825, that after first going to sleep--I claim--at about 0322. Flow limitations were minimal, nearly absent, in the two "awake" periods and the pressure was flat at the lower setting. Two things can seem to contradict that: snores that show up briefly upon first pressurizing the mask and the very slight rises in the otherwise fixed initial pressure that come from occasional isolated flow restrictions even when awake--the latter as I think is shown, in this case, at about 0305 when there is/may-be the slightest rise from the starting exhale pressure of 10.4-3.0 = 7.4 cm. due to a small flow limitation.
The sleep position graphs (in red and blue colors as in the second set of graphs from the top) are from an Excel spreadsheet and chart of data gathered by a relatively inexpensive ($89) X16-1D accelerometer; it records xyz coordinate data from its electronic "plumb bob" and clock. It has shown me that snoring begins and swings through a 60 degree arc, centered at the supine position, 0 degrees on the chart. Note that the red, full-height bars in the graph show times when I was on or getting on or off my feet. The A10 overcomes OA's very well except sometimes between 0 and 15 degrees toward either side from supine. the X16 has shown and convinced me to prevent anything close to supine sleep. That is another story, but that problem is solved; sleep is better for it.
In closing I notice that there are mystifying "Wake" and "Hours" times shown in the SleepyHead grid at right that I may be able to explain if I resort to ResScan; the oximeter and accelerometer agree with the graphed data from S/H, ending at about 0827.
2SB
[attachment=8825]
I have no particular qualifications or expertise with respect to the apnea/cpap/sleep related content of my posts beyond my own user experiences and what I've learned from others on this site. Each of us bears the burden of evaluating the validity and applicability of what we read here before acting on it.
Of my 3 once-needed, helpful, and adjunctive devices I have listed, only the accelerometer remains operative (but now idle). My second CMS50I died, too, of old age and the so-so Dreem 2 needs head-positioning band repair--if, indeed, Dreem even supports use of it now.
RE: Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
(10-16-2018, 11:22 AM)barry15 Wrote: Is there a way to determine if I was awake or asleep at any given point, using either ResScan 4.3 or Sleepyhead? I wake a lot during the night, and I suspect that many, if not most, of my events occur when I'm trying to get back to sleep. I'd like to check that, but I don't know how to tell if I was awake or asleep at any given point.
….
Thanks for any info you can give me.
Barry
Barry, I don't claim to know for sure--from graphical presentations of sleep data from my Autoset, oximeter and accelerometer's data presentations--what time I am asleep. However, though Board monitors have questioned or denied this, I believe that I have been awake until I see both, (1), a rise in the flat initial segment of the curve that shows my low beginning APAP pressure--10.4 cm in my case and, (2), a marked increase in, sometimes just the start up of, flow limitiations. Of course this is just anecdotal: may be true but only in my case, if true there as I believe. I've looked at and considered this in relation to what sleep I believe I have had many many times.
The image below illustrates this well, because, as rarely happens, I could not go back to sleep after a bathroom break and lay there awake for about an hour from about 0730-0825, that after first going to sleep--I claim--at about 0322. Flow limitations were minimal, nearly absent, in the two "awake" periods and the pressure was flat at the lower setting. Two things can seem to contradict that: snores that show up briefly upon first pressurizing the mask and the very slight rises in the otherwise fixed initial pressure that come from occasional isolated flow restrictions even when awake--the latter as I think is shown, in this case, at about 0305 when there is/may-be the slightest rise from the starting exhale pressure of 10.4-3.0 = 7.4 cm. due to a small flow limitation.
The sleep position graphs (in red and blue colors as in the second set of graphs from the top) are from an Excel spreadsheet and chart of data gathered by a relatively inexpensive ($89) X16-1D accelerometer; it records xyz coordinate data from its electronic "plumb bob" and clock. It has shown me that snoring begins and swings through a 60 degree arc, centered at the supine position, 0 degrees on the chart. Note that the red, full-height bars in the graph show times when I was on or getting on or off my feet. The A10 overcomes OA's very well except sometimes between 0 and 15 degrees toward either side from supine. the X16 has shown and convinced me to prevent anything close to supine sleep. That is another story, but that problem is solved; sleep is better for it.
In closing I notice that there are mystifying "Wake" and "Hours" times shown in the SleepyHead grid at right that I may be able to explain if I resort to ResScan; the oximeter and accelerometer agree with the graphed data from S/H, ending at about 0827.
2SB
[attachment=8825]
I have no particular qualifications or expertise with respect to the apnea/cpap/sleep related content of my posts beyond my own user experiences and what I've learned from others on this site. Each of us bears the burden of evaluating the validity and applicability of what we read here before acting on it.
Of my 3 once-needed, helpful, and adjunctive devices I have listed, only the accelerometer remains operative (but now idle). My second CMS50I died, too, of old age and the so-so Dreem 2 needs head-positioning band repair--if, indeed, Dreem even supports use of it now.
RE: Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
I have a Fitbit Charge 2, which (among other things) tracks sleep. It records when and for how long you're awake, in light sleep, in REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, and in deep sleep.
I check it as soon as I get up.
Its really helpful and has helped me to worry less about sleep.
But they're not cheap.
RE: Is there a way to tell when I was asleep?
Kadenz,
Thanks very much for taking the time to respond. Do you feel like the sleep tracking feature really works? Does it seem accurate to you? Does it really attempt to distinguish between light sleep and deep sleep? I'd be willing to spend the money if I thought it would actually be reasonably accurate in the sleep tracking function. I see there is a Charge 3 now. I wonder if it would be the same, better, or worse.
Barry
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