[News] RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS

[Mark Douglas]

FWIW Philips Respironics action about this seems par for the course. No offense folks, but we're not the customer, the DME is. So their action is probably to not cause damage to their customer, not the one that uses it.

Excellent point, which most of us often forget.

There are a significant number of DMEs that are neither high-volume or nor very profitable.  They won't be earning much on this recall servicing, if anything.  Once the recall gets enough awareness, their phones are going to be ringing off the hook from customers who all want immediate results.

Those DMEs are going to be putting a lot of pressure on Philips to make their efforts faster, easier, and less costly.  If that relationship sours, those DMEs will easily un-recommend Philips products in the future.  Personally, I think Philips has initially under-estimated their costs and involvement in the recall program.  They'll likely modify their efforts once they begin to get significantly more pressure in the days and weeks to come.

I AM the customer as I paid cash for my machine and that applies to a lot of us. I haven't been to a sleepdoc in 6 yrs. With the help of this board my AHI is effectively zero and has been the last 4 years.

[kappa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9jdc9_WmwM

Resmed’s fan in set up so that air seems to have no way but to go through their foam, I suspect it is an air cleaner filter. Even if it does not breath though the foam it is RIGHT there next to the air passage.

I asked if the foam is structural as in helping hold the fan motor and he thinks it is, so there is a more likely chance to be a problem removing it as it just might be needed to keep the fan in place.

Where the foam inserts in the Phillips machines are NOT structural and does not hold anything in place so removing it will only seemly allow a little more noise.

I think it's clear that the foam in the ResMed is a filter and is not structural - the silicon fins of the motor shround provide support against the housing. The foam appears very soft and wouldn't support much weight.

The recall is specifically related to the use of polyester-based polyurethane (PE-PUR) foam. I expect the motor inlet foam filter on the ResMed machines is a different type of foam hence their "not affected" stance (same with any foam in the DS2). As a secondary filter they clearly feel that regular replacement is not warranted - it's just there to provide some additional protection to the motor.

I took a look at the foam in my old System One machine. In that case the (easily removed) foam forms the bottom wall of the air inlet path and ensures air comes in through the air filter rather than through other holes in the case. The feel of this foam is quite different to the air filter style foam - quite firm and waxy feeling - and doesn't really allow air to flow through it. Is the DreamStation foam similar?

[SuperSleeper]

Folks, please read this thread about not using the "Quote with Reply" button unless you need to:

http://www.apneaboard.com/forums/Thread-...-T-HAVE-TO

You can still use it, but delete out the unnecessary text and quote only the portion you're replying to.

Thanks - on a large thread like this one, it makes things much more readable.

It's irritating to some folks if they have to scroll down an entire screen full of duplicate text that they just got done reading.

Thanks in advance for your help, folks!

[SarcasticDave94]

Mark Douglas, take note you bought your machine either from a DME or an online supplier not Respironics. So my saying that you're not a customer of Respironics is still valid and truthful.

[SuperSleeper]

CPAP Manufacturers often refer to "their customers".  They are not referring to sleep apnea patients.   Instead, they are referring to Durable Medical Equipment suppliers (DMEs).  In other words, whoever pays them for their CPAP machines is seen as "their" customer.  When you or I purchase a CPAP machine, we do not purchase one directly from the manufacturer - rather we purchase it from a DME supplier.

So, in this "medical equipment system", DMEs are seen as the customer of CPAP manufacturers, and patients are seen as the customer of the DMEs.

So, while in my mind, I'd like to see myself as a "customer" of a CPAP manufacturer, they simply don't see it that way.

I agree that their mindset is wrong-headed, and they really should see end-users as "their customer" as well, since we're footing the bill.  But they do not see it that way.

You have to remember that the vast majority of CPAPs are distributed by local DMEs, and they're paid via an insurance company and perhaps some patient money as an out-of-pocket expense.  Most of those patients have never come to Apnea Board, and know little else than what their local DME tells them.

At no point in their business model does a patient pay a CPAP manufacturer directly, at least with the vast majority of manufacturers.

That's the reality of the situation, unfortunately.  

[WakeUpTime]

^ The above is very true.

It's not easy finding comparisons amongst other industries.  If there was a faulty component in a mobile phone or laptop computer, the manufacturer would deal with the end-user directly.  If it were a faulty car part from Toyota, Toyota USA would ship the replacement part to the dealer along with some service compensation for the replacement.  

Customizable mandatory life-altering medical devices are in quite a different category.

Philips DMEs don't have the ability to repair units though.  They may coordinate the "fix" and possibly setup the replacement settings.

The coming details will be interesting as they unfold.  At the moment, Philips is likely rapidly analyzing the overall recall registrations that are pouring in by the thousands.  I'm sure they're actively working on the logistics of their response, though it may not be immediate - and that's going to upset a lot of people.

In all situations however, government departments and lawyers will skip the dealers & distributors, and deal directly with the manufacturer (Philips).  Philips could have avoided that by coordinating a simplified "fix" such as an age-adjusted machine credit towards a new machine.  Instead this will get dragged on and delayed until eventually end-users get collectively represented by either government agencies or lawyers.

[hegel]

Often when cars are recalled, for example, there's been a series of events among a few people that are significant. The vast majority of the recalled model's car owners have had no adverse events at all. I'm not going to defend Phillips. I AM going to suggest that we don't really know the extent of the health effects from this posed to the public at large. We will know more about that soon. Meanwhile, we live in an age of instant distrust. I'm not sure that's fair for Resmed and others; Phillips appears to have dithered a bit but again, they may have been sussing the extent of the issue.

I drive a Honda and have for years. There have been recalls of Hondas. I still will drive a Honda.

personally, I'll wait to know more before forming a judgement or hacking my Resmed from distrust and fear of all cpap manufacturers.

[chasmm]

First of all, thank you to all those that are providing their opinions and guidance on this. I really do appreciate it.

I just thought I'd share my experience with this recall issue.

I have (now) four machines. All Philips. When I was first diagnosed in 2011 I was issued a Respironics System One Model 450. I used that machine religiously until January of 2019. As I was going on a trip, I decided to look at travel machines and decided on a Dreamstation Go. I used it on the trip, and at home for 2-3 months, then decided to purchase a Dreamstation. I have used the Dreamstation consistently since mid 2018, so about 2 years.

About 2-3 weeks ago I was browsing the site of a prominent CPAP equipment company, and ended up, almost accidentally, purchasing a Dreamstation 2. <long story> I got an e-mail from the company saying they needed an updated prescription - I decided I wasn't going to send it and would cancel the order. Lo and behold, last Wednesday I got a notice from UPS saying I was getting a delivery on last Friday. Well okay I thought...I do like the "new" stuff and I got a great deal on the machine/financing/etc., so what the heck?

I didn't bother to unpack the DS2 until Saturday when I hooked it up. I had already sent an e-mail to this board looking for the clinician's manual. So Monday morning I woke up to the recall madness.

I haven't ever used a SoClean, but I have used the Sleep8, which consists of dropping the mask and tubing in bag to be ozone-ated, for the DS1 and DSGo.

Today I checked all four machines with the recall registry:

1. Respironics System One Model 450 - Is being recalled. This machine was made in 2011 and used by me from 2011 - 2018
   
2. Dreamstation Go - Is being recalled
   
3. Dreamstation - Is being recalled
   
4. Dreamstation 2 - Not being recalled
   

I'll admit to being pretty unhappy that even the "old" machine may have had this problem.

[WakeUpTime]

This is quite a bit different from an automotive recall. One could continue to drive the vehicle and, pending no incident, have no long-term health or other impact as a result of the wait for the manufacturer's fix.

This may be more in the category of a Johnson's Baby Powder event. No one would suggest that using Baby Powder would immediately harm them, but the harmful effects of long-term exposure as a result of asbestos contamination was proven to significant reduce the life-span of some women who developed ovarian cancer. Real "harm" may not be known in some individuals for several months or years, and that's why the court ruled for a $2B J&J compensation fund.

It's likely that internal documents may exist to show that Philips was aware of this issue significantly more than two months ago (April 26) when Philips first disclosed the coming recall in a "company update". There "may" be a deliberate neglectful response to protect profits and stock prices. It's been two months since their update while most people will continue to use their potentially cancer-causing machine. There isn't even a hint of a resolution date.

[racprops]

I got on CPAP in 2013 after a quad bypass and was later told my quad bypass was most likely due to my Apnea.

I have been 100% compliment.

I said the already but it needs to be repeated: I have been using CPAP for 8 years to try to save my behind, to learn that Phillips may have invalidated my efforts by allowing crappy form to harm me really frosted my cookies.

Form that is not really NEEDED to boot.

Foam used to make a slightly quieter machine.

Foam that might kill some people, my self perhaps, I have some unknown stuff in my lungs, stuff that cased me to be treated with a dangerous drug for Pulmonary edema, when that did not help I was told I might have valley fever.

Valley fever is a fungus infection found in mainly the southwest and can also be very bad.

I spent some three months in fear until I was cleared of it.

I was then told to tell any one doing a cat scan of my lungs to check the records: that there is a unknown something there. And if it has not grown to forget about them. Seems I will have them for the rest of my life.

Now I worry that I made have some foam in them or something else.

So far my breathing is AOK I have no problems...SO FAR.

I trusted Phillips for 8 years. AND at lease I now know the problem and can deal with it.

I have had contact with both Phillips and ResMed, both treat us like dirt, both companies do not want to deal with us, both companies gave me a harst brush off.

I see NO evidence ResMed is any better that Phillips, so I will stick with the Devil I know. I have tamed him.

You want to trust ResMed that is your choice.

I wish you well and pray that you will be OK.

Good luck.

Rich