[News] RECALL THREAD-- IMPORTANT PHILIPS DREAMSTATION & SYSTEM ONE USERS

[SuperSleeper]

So the question I have is this:

If the replacement DS2 machines have issues, what about the reconditioned original DreamStation units that had the foam replaced?  Do those replacement DS1 machines also have the same issue as the DS2 replacements?

[Sheepish]

Also, which is worse, the original DS1, the new foam DS1, the DS2, or no CPAP at all (and depending on whether you were diagnosed with mild, moderate or severe OSA)? Of course, there are better options, but what about among those?

[btreger]

So the question I have is this:

If the replacement DS2 machines have issues, what about the reconditioned original DreamStation units that had the foam replaced?  Do those replacement DS1 machines also have the same issue as the DS2 replacements?

The new DS2 machines came out around the start of the initial recall. They made a big deal about their new silicone foam and said they would use it when they started the process of refurbishing the DS1 machines that had been returned to them. Remember they only had two foams to play with, the original recalled foam, and the new silicone one.

[btreger]

Also, which is worse, the original DS1, the new foam DS1, the DS2, or no CPAP at all (and depending on whether you were diagnosed with mild, moderate or severe OSA)? Of course, there are better options, but what about among those?

I think you already know the answer, don't use any Philips Apnea machines. You can not measure which is worse unless you want to drive yourself crazy.

[WakeUpTime]

"Philips recall crisis casts shadow over legacy of Respironics founder"
December 30, 2023  -  Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
https://www.post-gazette.com/business/he...2312290012

"DreamStation 2 Formaldehyde BOMBSHELL!"
December 29, 2023  -  Nick Dunn (CPAP Reviews)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2qm2ABFXao

Incredible, but perhaps not unexpected to many that have been affected and closely following the Philips Recall over the past 2+ years.  
Just when most, including Philips, thought that the end of 2023 was marking the conclusion to the 2+ year Philips Recall.

The original founder of Respironics knew then and now to never take their eyes off the end-user customer.  Philips sees DMEs as their customers, but DMEs are almost never end-users.  Like Philips, DMEs are focused on annual profits - and being a good dealer.  But DME "customers" have no long-term consequences in selling a specific brand.  End-user customers are focused on their health and comfort each day for the next 50 years - even longer, as they're also concerned about the well-being of those they may leave behind; so their medical device is extremely important.

Original product founders know to see end-user customers as family.  Car manufacturers occasionally make the same mistake, valuing the opinions of top management, dealership owners and the media more than paying daily long-term end-users.  The last thing you ever do is fail to correct issues of possible harm to end-user customers for a decade or more.  Philips only began to make corrective measures when reports were rapidly accelerating at an alarming rate, mainly due to the use of ozone cleaners - but it definitely wasn't exclusive to that group.  Had Philips not responded when they did, their Respironics businesses may have been permanently concluded - with spillover effects to their other highly profitable large-scale medical products.

When Philips knew to quickly recreate an updated foam, likely with the initial intention of selling it in a new product (the DreamStation 2), it was their perfect solution conceived within an executive board room.  Philips devised that they would quietly fix the issue with a chargeable new product upgrade when their older Philips products go out of warranty or lifecycle (2-5 years).  But they responded far too slowly, and the media became involved in reporting on what was happening inside Philips devices, what was being experienced by end-users, and what the potential harm could be to end-users.  The media sought independent scientific studies and referenced known harmful chemical effects on the body.  

Rather than having a more perfect foam solution, and a new device that was on par with the latest design coming from ResMed, the design team was likely instructed to rapidly design a replacement product which would contain a better foam.  

The result was a "better foam" but not a perfect foam.  Nor was the DreamStation 2 a very good product redesign - internally or externally.  Even worse, new significant foam-related issues may continue with the revised new soft latex+ foam.  Philips' Respironics division re-launch of chargeable devices may be centered around an inferior design (components, design and appearance).  When placed next to the latest ResMed models, I still see something that resembles a glossy black coffin.  One is a positive experience, the other might give additional unnecessary therapy anxiety - something Philips end-user customers don't need at this point.

In the short-term, Philips' best new (paying) end-user customer is an unsuspecting newly diagnosed patient who visits a highly Philips-motivated DME that's been well-incentivized by Philips' extremely strong global marketing skills and abilities.  No doubt Philips will be practically giving away DS2s to DMEs to attempt to secure its pre-2021 position in the new-sales marketplace.  Perhaps their strategy in 2024 will be something like: "For every new DreamStation 2 purchased by a DME, we'll provide a 50% credit in Philips masks and accessories".  They'll find a way.  If they don't, investors will likely tell them to close the Respironics consumer division sometime in 2025; but I'll bet that Philips will launch another redesign before it comes to that, if they've decided to stay in the market at all costs.

[*NOTE:  The comments contained herein are the opinions of one end-user customer.]

[btreger]

The last thing you ever do is fail to correct issues of possible harm to end-user customers 

This one line sticks me in the heart. We both have been covering the recall from day one. You were one of the first, and I came along after you. We see Philips trying to change standards and dodging all relevant questions concerning their Silicon Foam. This is from the same playbook they tried to use the first time over 2+ years ago.
 
Now we have dedicated journalists digging into the silicon foam story. This is not going away. Buckle Up, we may have another 2 years of new stories to post.

God, I hope not.

To all the current Philips users, I wish I had good news to share with you, but anything I would even dare to say would be a lie.

[Sleeprider]

If there was a way to search my comments on Philips prior to any knowledge of this recall, I was already calling it a far inferior device and was complaining about their marketing tactics and total lack of consideration of the end-user. This has not changed. I live in Murrysville, and was well aware of the change in company ethics and focus early on. I was accused more than once of being a" Resmed fan-boy" for my negative posts on the Philips devices. I always tried to be fair in the absence of the recall, but this was typical. https://www.apneaboard.com/forums/Thread...#pid190273

In May 2020, my frustration with Philips ended up with "Sleeprider's Rant" wiki https://www.apneaboard.com/wiki/index.ph...rider_Rant I didn't start this thread until a full year later.

[Phaleronic]

Also, which is worse, the original DS1, the new foam DS1, the DS2, or no CPAP at all (and depending on whether you were diagnosed with mild, moderate or severe OSA)? Of course, there are better options, but what about among those?

I remediated my dreamstations (foamless airchambers), that's the best option here.

[Sheepish]

I remediated my dreamstations (foamless airchambers), that's the best option here.

 Method and noise results?

[WakeUpTime]

"Why Consumers Take What They Get"
May 21, 2020  |  SleepRider
https://www.apneaboard.com/wiki/index.ph...rider_Rant

That op-ed article should be required reading for newly diagnosed apnea patients as an introduction and overview of the modern CPAP marketplace and Philips' distribution practices, as it existed one year before the Philips Recall.  It accurately described corporate and dealer behaviors that were likely not commonly known at the time.  

One year later, and in the months that followed, we'd learn of Philips' internal documents that disclosed warning statements from its foam supplier, a magnitude of growing end-user complaints, fines given to Philips for its disclosures of private end-user sleep data to Philips DMEs for competitive gains, Philips controlling marketing practices, and so on.

From my perspective, Philips had owned my marketplace.  My "independent" sleep center, minutes after being diagnosed, guided me to their room filled with Philips equipment, Philips masks and accessories, and Philips marketing materials.  The next day, I arrived at their recommended DME.  The DME therapist showed me their room filled with Philips demonstration equipment and Philips product literature.  I remember them saying that there are other suppliers, but they're all about the same, so here's the Philips CPAP system and Philips mask that you should purchase.  Thousands of patients likely went through the same steps at my sleep center.

Philips' marketing reps successfully target all the "recommenders" with ongoing complimentary products, educational materials and product literature.  They happily absorb the cost of these non-commissioned marketing activities.  Philips had simply made it easier (and more profitable) for DMEs to sell its products.

Regarding Chinese brands that have been entering the global market, it would be interesting to investigate the sleep algorithms that they use.  I would imagine them to be encrypted in their firmware, however if they were to be decrypted, I wouldn't be surprised if they contained proprietary code taken from highly successful market participants.  Indeed, it would be highly inappropriate if they are marketed to newly diagnosed patients as "equal participants".  As critical as I've been regarding Philips' past flawed executive decisions, I still want them to improve and continue in a fair and balanced marketplace.