SoClean & other CPAP cleaning machines

[Stom]

FYI to add just a bit of info to that, here's their website link to a lab report documenting testing done, from April of this year. Commercial Link Removed, instead search for Efficacy Report Summarization for SoClean 2 on their website.

I think the test essentially says the machine generates ozone and that yes, ozone kills organisms.  But we knew that already.  It seems like a valid test setup, with lab cultures in various places on an actual Dreamstation mask setup.  I'll leave it to our forum bacteriologists to evaluate the report's credibility.

Just doing my part to close up that ol' debbil Ozone Hole.

It seems like a no-brainer to assume that if SoClean kills germs that it must prevent infections. Unfortunately, we can't just make that assumption. Science is what we use to separate what seems like it ought to be true from what is true. And there is at least one mildly surprising study (that I cited earlier) showing that bacteria in CPAP machines were not leading to increases in sinus infections. That doesn't mean that it can't happen, but rather it suggests that it isn't generally an issue, and SoClean is selling SoCleans based on the idea that it is generally an issue.

It's possible that people with compromised immune systems or other risk factors may benefit from Ozone santization of their CPAP equipment, but SoClean should not be making generalized claims absent valid peer-reviewed proof of specific benefits **in humans** on CPAP in a randomized, controlled clinical trial.

[Walla Walla]

I don't care what the company claims or has proof, I will leave that to others to take them to court if they want.

FYI to add just a bit of info to that, here's their website link to a lab report documenting testing done, from April of this year. Commercial Link Removed, instead search for Efficacy Report Summarization for SoClean 2 on their website.

I think the test essentially says the machine generates ozone and that yes, ozone kills organisms.  But we knew that already.  It seems like a valid test setup, with lab cultures in various places on an actual Dreamstation mask setup.  I'll leave it to our forum bacteriologists to evaluate the report's credibility.

Just doing my part to close up that ol' debbil Ozone Hole.

For the test they washed the equipment according to manufacturer's instructions than place it in the SoCal machine. I'll bet I could wash my equipment the same way without the SoClean and it would have tested clean also.  

[PoolQ]

wow again. this will be my last post on this subject.
free speech is explicitly guaranteed by the constitution, well duh, but that is for government. many a sad person has found out that this does NOT translate to individuals in public on company provided equipment. I happen to know a conservative that has recently lost their job because of this. So please just go right ahead and continue to defame both a company and product on a public website. Hope you have enough money to defend your self.

The posting of that study has nothing to do with their claim on the SoClean web site. I will not take the time to splain it to you. I have given up.

"I think that kind of ends the discussion. If we can't agree to discuss it based on facts and objective evidence there isn't much point in having a conversation" yep that says it right there. you clearly do no understand logical arguments and insist on. going on what you think regardless of your lack of knowledge about legal issues. Have a great day. enjoy yourself. HAHAHAHA "facts and objective evidence " total BS. sorry but yes.

Done and out

[Stom]

free speech is explicitly guaranteed by the constitution, well duh, but that is for government. many a sad person has found out that this does NOT translate to individuals in public on company provided equipment. I happen to know a conservative that has recently lost their job because of this. So please just go right ahead and continue to defame both a company and product on a public website. Hope you have enough money to defend your self.

You misunderstand the nuance of the First Amendment applying only to the government restriction of free speech. A court order to unpublish speech is a *government* restriction on free speech, and thus must pass a very high bar to justify such a restriction. Someone loosing their private sector job due to their speech on company equipment in an at will employment state is an entirely different matter and not a **government** restriction on their speech. Also, you really don't understand defamation law if you think any of what I have written is actionable defamation.

The posting of that study has nothing to do with their claim on the SoClean web site

The study I posted directly relates to SoClean's intimations that the general public needs SoClean units to prevent sinus infections. The study contradicts the hypothesis that bacterial colonies in CPAP machines will generally cause sinus infections in CPAP users. Sound data trumps intuition.

As with so many things, the facts aren't always intuitive. Which is why we have science, to separate what seems like it should be true from what actually is true.

For example, anti-bacterial hand soaps. Seems like they should be a good thing. They aren't. Regular washing with soap and water removes bacteria just fine, and overuse of anti-bacterial detergents can lead to possible health problems from long term use and anti-bacterial resistant germs.. The FDA finally banned the use of the most common bactericides in hand soaps and body washes for consumer use. There isn't any sound evidence that the anti-bacterial soaps generally prevent illness or the spread of infections better than regular soap and water. The same is true of SoClean as far as I'm aware.

So, while SoClean may kill bacteria in idealized lab settings on completely clean and dry equipment, there is no peer-reviewed RCT study I'm aware of showing that SoClean prevents illness in ordinary CPAP users any better than just washing their equipment with regular detergent, or prevents illness in ordinary CPAP users at all.

SoClean can claim to kill lots of bacteria based on their idealized lab studies but that doesn't mean they can legitimately claim to generally prevent **illness**, which is a whole different thing that needs separate validation.

(Here's an FDA page on the hand soaps, for the sake of completeness
https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/Consume...378393.htm )

[PoolQ]

okay so not done. I have read everything on the SoClean site and everything there is fine as is. you may not like some of what they say, but they are "safe" legally.

What you said about 1st amendment is exactly what I am saying and I have no idea why you think we are saying different things.

I have no idea what you do or did for a living, but me personally have defined product, their claims, including legal liability for over 30 years and I still consult. So I can tell you for a fact that your claims are not founded with anything on the SoClean website and if SoClean was a client of mine will would recommend a cease and desist order at a minimum. You are making disparaging remarks about a product that are proven untrue and implying that the company is being dishonest and untruthful. If I was asked to give my professional opinion I would be willing to testify in court and would not have an issue with becoming an expert witness. You are in over your head and unless you are willing to post your background that explains why anyone should listen to about product safety, efficacy, and the law, we are again done and I will be blocking you as I really do not want to waste any more time on this.


So please don't listen to me. Stay on your high horse and keep slamming a product that does exactly what it says it does. I do suggest strongly that this forum think carefully about continuing to allow you to post as you do. The other posts in this thread are not at issue and not a problem to remain in public view.

[Walla Walla]

Hi

anyone know if the fit life total face mask xl will fit inside the so clean machine??

thanks

Illavata

This is from the SoClean website: "The SoClean chamber has a 5” X 5” opening and is 7” deep. Any CPAP mask under that size will fit."

So go ahead and measure mask and that should answer the question and close this out.

[Stom]

I have no idea what you do or did for a living, but me personally have defined product, their claims, including legal liability for over 30 years and I still consult. So I can tell you for a fact that your claims are not founded with anything on the SoClean website and if SoClean was a client of mine will would recommend a cease and desist order at a minimum. You are making disparaging remarks about a product that are proven untrue and implying that the company is being dishonest and untruthful. If I was asked to give my professional opinion I would be willing to testify in court and would not have an issue with becoming an expert witness. You are in over your head and unless you are willing to post your background that explains why anyone should listen to about product safety, efficacy, and the law, we are again done and I will be blocking you as I really do not want to waste any more time on this.

I've cited public information, including SoClean's own website with quotes as well as at least one scientific study. None of my opinions are based on non-public information. I don't expect anyone to take me at my word since I do not have, nor claim to have, any special or secret knowledge, which is why I cite public information so people can form their own opinions based on the links and quotes I've posted. Your posts routinely lack any quotes or specificity when it comes your repeated claims of defamation on my part. Please quote specific things you claim are knowing, false statements of fact that would be actionable defamation. Keep in mind that mere "disparagement" does not equal **actionable** defamation. Nor does opinion based on public information. Noted First Amendment lawyer Ken White says, "vagueness in defamation threats is a hallmark of meritless thuggery."

A "cease and desist" is not a court order but rather a demand letter. Such letters are sometimes called "heart attack" letters, because they are designed to scare people into doing what the letter demands, regardless of the actual legal merits of the letter.

Were anyone to contemplate making legal demands or suing over the opinions I've posted here, I'd note that California has a strong anti-SLAPP law that protects residents from suits designed to prevent free speech, and has provisions for recovery of fees from the losing party.

I'd also point out the "Streisand Effect" - which is a term coined for when a person or company attempts to quash free speech they don't like but their actions result in greater public attention to the issues they were trying to hide from public view than if they had just left the matter alone. In many cases, very few people have read or heard about an issue until legal action is filed, which then brings it to the public forefront, with additional revelations from a slew of documents from pre-trial discovery that were formerly non-public information. Filing a suit can result in significant exposure, scrutiny and legal and financial liability, including to having to try prove certain claims true in a court of law in order to prevail, claims that they might normally make or imply but not have to prove true to a judge or jury were they not to file a suit. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

I would also say that since you have, to my mind, implied that you would report my opinions posted here to SoClean with recommendations to take legal action, I'd say that your use as an expert witness in such a case would be severely compromised and subject to objection to you as a witness and extensive cross examination about bias were you some how able to survive court scrutiny sufficiently to become a witness in the case. And, I think, any communications you were to send to them in regards to this matter, since you are not their legal council, could be subject to discovery.

Now, were you to suggest legal action against me to SoClean, I expect that they would look at this thread, the quotes, links, language, lack of any knowingly false statements, the context, and, based on sound business strategy and competent legal council, determine that neither this thread, nor any of the others in this forum, merit their attention based on the reasons I've noted earlier in this post.

Frankly, all this posturing about defamation strikes me as an attempt to bully me because you disagree with my opinion rather than any sincere warning out of concern for me. I really don't think that is a good use of the forum.

[PoolQ]

heh glad I chose to see your post. You are a figment of your own imagination. Your logic fails totally. your argument fails. quoting public documents means nothing. we are not required to have "secret" documents. It no longer matters about SoClean, you are saying what you think without any basis for saying it and saying your quoting public documents is meaningless. you embarrass yourself. If you really want me to say your right? okay your right, I am wrong, you win, you have an IQ of 200 and surpass any and all university professors. You must have a very interesting life that you have created for yourself in your own mind. bye-bye now

[SuperSleeper]

Please note that the comments in this thread have gone well beyond the OP's initial question of:

anyone know if the fit life total face mask xl will fit inside the so clean machine?

Please help answer the OP's question (if you know for sure). EDIT: I see Walla Walla answered the OP's question.

But I must ask everyone to keep on the OP's topic in his thread, since the discussion on free speech, defamation, legal issues etc. really belong in their own thread and probably in the Off-Topic forum instead of here.

And, please keep it civil and not resort to personal attacks.

[Gideon]

Thanks SS,  I have just finished reading this thread and was going to let the Mods know that the dialog here had gotten out of hand.