[Mod Note] Prevention rather than Cure ? - Thread Closed

[Micheal.M]

Gideon wrote-“Following your logic, we would want to maximize flow limitations or resistance to strengthen our "breathing" muscles, in other words, make it harder to breathe and thus to lower our O2 SATs. I assure you that, in general, this is not a good direction.”

Hi Gideon, I didn’t mention anything about maximising flow limitations or resistance.
Just muscle exercise.
I definitely need to work on my English grammar and sentence construction.

[Dog Slobber]

Hi Gideon, I didn’t mention anything about maximising flow limitations or resistance.
Just muscle exercise.

Gideon never claimed you did.

He applied the same logic regarding flow limitations as you did to general CPAP usage.

As much as you want to claim that "Even if I’m incorrect, every discussion is worth thought to improve understanding", that is not true.

The basic premise of your "theory" is; CPAP makes it easier to breathe, therefore muscles do less work, therefore this can contribute to weaker respiratory muscle strength.

This is wrong on all accounts, CPAP does *NOT* make breathing easier. As stated twice now. While CPAP might make inhaling easier, it makes exhaling more difficult. It contributes to *more* muscle work.

Your claim that "every discussion is worth thought to improve understanding", while on the surface may seem admirable, is nonsense. You are promoting a "theory" that is groundless and not based in fact. You just made it up.

This is a problem, the biggest challenge with CPAP is compliance, people give up. A whole bunch of people are one night away from never turning their CPAPs on again. They are looking for an excuse to discontinue, and you're giving them one.

If you want to promote exercise, that's a good thing. But don't hide it in nonsense about CPAP usage contributing to weaker respiratory muscles.

And for what it's worth, this linked study demonstrates that CPAP use actually improves respiratory muscle strength.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8542129/


If you want to continue the discussion, then your next step needs to be; support your allegation with actual evidence, otherwise your theory needs to be thoroughly discredited.

[Micheal.M]

If CPAP contributes to more muscle work, why does advertising say “ CPAP delivers constant and steady air pressure to help you breathe while you sleep.” Your claim seems at odds with the purpose that I’ve been lead to believe that CPAP makes breathing easier ?
Or does it make it easier to breathe by making it harder on the muscles. Like resistance training. That was mentioned in the report you linked to.

[OpalRose]

[quote='Micheal.M' pid='447874' dateline='1655549603']
Been on a CPAP machine for several years but I feel a bit trapped. When I can’t use my machine I have a horrible night and the next day is a blur.

I've been following this thread and am a little confused.  What is the reasoning for your statement "When I can't use my machine......"?   I believe that most of us would feel like crap the next day if we didn't use our Pap machine.

I’ve got a theory that my respiratory muscles aren’t working too hard at night and I’m over 60 and not exactly an athlete.

Your respiratory system is comprised of the diaphragm, ribcage and abdominal muscles.  What makes you think that your respiratory muscles "should" work harder at night?  Actually, if your Pap machine is set up properly, and as you fall asleep,
breathing should normalize.  Unless you are on a ASV machine or a Ventilator, a Cpap "does not" breathe for you!  It's function is to splint open your airway to keep it from collapsing.

So should I be doing more respiratory training during the day to offset the muscular ‘downtime’ at night ?
 And If I consistently worked on those muscles would I be able to get off cpap or is it a totally different thing ?

There's nothing wrong with doing respiratory or breathing exercises during the day.  But understand that your breathing doesn't shut down at night and your Cpap isn't breathing for you.  It is helping to keep your airway from collapsing.
Doing breathing exercises are good, but don't use it as an excuse to stop using your Cpap. If you feel badly the next day when you don't use your Cpap, then that should answer your question.... "would I be able to get off cpap?...

[OpalRose]

Michael,
Show us a couple Screenshots from OSCAR. There are links in my signature line to guide you.

There may be some adjustments that we can suggest that would help you sleep better.

[Dog Slobber]

If CPAP contributes to more muscle work, why does advertising say “ CPAP delivers constant and steady air pressure to help you breathe while you sleep.” Your claim seems at odds with the purpose that I’ve been lead to believe that CPAP makes breathing easier ?
Or does it make it easier to breathe by making it harder on the muscles. Like resistance training. That was mentioned in the report you linked to.

Because the pressure of CPAP opens your airway so air can actually pass through.

When your throat is completely closed, or closed to the size of a small straw, you can't breath or it is very difficult to breath. The continuous pressure allows you to breathe by opening the passageway.

I'd say that fits the very definition of the advertising. 

It has *nothing* to do with CPAP allowing you to breathe easier by allowing your muscles to do less work.

[Micheal.M]

Been on a CPAP machine for several years but I feel a bit trapped. When I can’t use my machine I have a horrible night and the next day is a blur.

I've been following this thread and am a little confused.  What is the reasoning for your statement "When I can't use my machine......"?   I believe that most of us would feel like crap the next day if we didn't use our Pap machine.

*Many times I’ve been on holidays, stayed overnight at work, had a problem with the setup like a broken strap and have missed a night.*

I’ve got a theory that my respiratory muscles aren’t working too hard at night and I’m over 60 and not exactly an athlete.

Your respiratory system is comprised of the diaphragm, ribcage and abdominal muscles.  What makes you think that your respiratory muscles "should" work harder at night?  Actually, if your Pap machine is set up properly, and as you fall asleep,
breathing should normalize.  Unless you are on a ASV machine or a Ventilator, a Cpap "does not" breathe for you!  It's function is to splint open your airway to keep it from collapsing.

* My experience with Central apnea proved that CPAP machines do breathe for you as I was not breathing but the positive pressure was enough to push air in, through my lungs and out again without any effort from me. Whilst not doing the physical inspiration/exhalation the continuous movement of air through my lungs was enough to keep me alive. *

So should I be doing more respiratory training during the day to offset the muscular ‘downtime’ at night ?
 And If I consistently worked on those muscles would I be able to get off cpap or is it a totally different thing ?

There's nothing wrong with doing respiratory or breathing exercises during the day.  But understand that your breathing doesn't shut down at night and your Cpap isn't breathing for you.  It is helping to keep your airway from collapsing.  
Doing breathing exercises are good, but don't use it as an excuse to stop using your Cpap.  If you feel badly the next day when you don't use your Cpap, then that should answer your question.... "would I be able to get off cpap?...

* So when someone says ‘CPAP doesn’t breath for you and you don’t stop breathing’, that’s not true in my experience.
I think the problem is my use of words, I’m saying breathing but I meant that the positive pressure that supplies a constant fresh flow of air, with or without muscular assistance, will keep you alive.*
[/quote]

[Gideon]

There is no constant flow of air into your body and if you don't breathe on your own you actually would die.

[OpalRose]

I think Gideon gave you the beat answer!

It sounds like you're trying to justify not using Cpap therapy. I would seriously wish that for all of us, but reading through the lines, you suffer from Central Sleep Apnea. What machine are you using? How is it set up?

[Sleepster]

If CPAP contributes to more muscle work, why does advertising say “ CPAP delivers constant and steady air pressure to help you breathe while you sleep.”

It helps you breathe by opening your airway with a pressure splint.

Your argument about the muscles getting lazy because a machine is breathing for you seems to apply more to a ventilator than a CPAP machine. Do you have any evidence that ventilators or CPAP machines weaken muscles?

The breathing assistance provided by a CPAP machine is so small that I doubt it could have this effect.

One thing I noticed was that the muscles around my diaphragm were sore for the first few weeks of CPAP therapy. I think my lungs were getting an extra workout because the CPAP machine allowed me to breathe and thus exercise those muscles.

CPAP machines don't breathe for you, they make it possible for you to breathe for yourself. They are not ventilators.