P10 reporting leaks even when there are no real leaks

[Michaely6]

Hi Everyone,

I really want to get to the bottom of why some users can get 0 reported leaks with the p10 while some like me can never get a zero leak reading even when there no true leaks (with an exception to the intentional leaks).

I recall reading another user's post who had this same strange encounter with the P10. I'm on a Vauto machine but I also tested it on an aircurve asv, airsense 10, and resmed ST-A machine in order to eliminate the possibility of the machine itself misreporting leaks. No matter how good the seal is on the p10, the leak rate will never read below 10 or so. The P10 is also assembly correctly so the only air that is coming out is from the from the intentional vent leak however the machine will still read as 10 or above for the leak regardless and goes higher when pressure is increased. I even experimented by trying all three size pillows and manually using my fingers to cover the pillows (making it a perfect seal) and the machine still will show a leak rate of 10 or higher. I have 2 p10's (a for him and her model) and this happens to both P10's even when no real leaks are present. I've adjusted and angled the pillows every way that you can think of and it still shows a 10 or higher leak rate when it should be showing 0. As stated earlier, the mask is assembled correctly and I even purchased the 2nd P10 in order to rule out a possible defective p10, and i took it straight out the box (assembled already) and tried it with the same false leaking results. 

FYI, I'm watching the leak rate on the machine while i'm awake during this experiment by moving the machine wheel and viewing the report menu.

Does anyone have any solution to this problem or know any more information about it? It's just annoying seeing that leak rate even when both pillow cushions are covered up completely.

Thank you

[staceyburke]

You can have large or small mouth leaks with the p10 completely sealed.

[sheepless]

I thought I had the same problem. for years I couldn't get my leak rate down below about 14 and I was reasonably certain I had few mask leaks. I do have some very minor and sporadic mask leaks when it gets knocked out of place even slightly by my pillow (for example) but I'm forced to conclude the leaks are lip/mouth leaks of which I'm mostly unaware, being asleep. you can get a good idea whether your leaks are from the mask or mouth by looking at the flow rate in oscar. mask leaks tend to be brief spikes, compared to mouth leaks that tend to last longer. for a few recent months I had leaks around 4 for no reason I can explain, so apparently it's possible. I use a soft cervical collar mostly to help minimize my lip leaks but some still occur and often wake me up. others use a chin strap (best to use one that pulls the chin up, not back) or tape their lips. reducing pressure helps a lot if it doesn't appreciably increase your event rate. the best solution, one that I am getting better at but still haven't mastered, is the tongue suck technique where you position your tongue at the roof of your mouth to block air from entering your mouth, directing it through your nose. obviously the hard part is to maintain this position during sleep but they say we can train ourselves to do so.

[Michaely6]

You can have large or small mouth leaks with the p10 completely sealed.

This issue has nothing to do with mouth leaks. My post stated that I am awake while doing this experiment. Any pillow mask will have leaks if you open your mouth not just the p10.

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I thought I had the same problem. for years I couldn't get my leak rate down below about 14 and I was reasonably certain I had few mask leaks. I do have some very minor and sporadic mask leaks when it gets knocked out of place even slightly by my pillow (for example) but I'm forced to conclude the leaks are lip/mouth leaks of which I'm mostly unaware, being asleep. you can get a good idea whether your leaks are from the mask or mouth by looking at the flow rate in oscar. mask leaks tend to be brief spikes, compared to mouth leaks that tend to last longer. for a few recent months I had leaks around 4 for no reason I can explain, so apparently it's possible. I use a soft cervical collar mostly to help minimize my lip leaks but some still occur and often wake me up. others use a chin strap (best to use one that pulls the chin up, not back) or tape their lips. reducing pressure helps a lot if it doesn't appreciably increase your event rate. the best solution, one that I am getting better at but still haven't mastered, is the tongue suck technique where you position your tongue at the roof of your mouth to block air from entering your mouth, directing it through your nose. obviously the hard part is to maintain this position during sleep but they say we can train ourselves to do so.

Leaks are not mouth related. I'm awake with my mouth closed while doing this experiment. The same leaks occur even when i seal the nasal pillows with my fingers (while the mask is not on my face as it should still seal if the nasal pillows covered)

[Michaely6]

I thought my post was pretty clear but let me just provide some clarification based on the responses that i got so far. This issue has nothing to do with mouth leaks, cervical collar, etc. I am awake while watching my machines leak rate on the machine above 10 regardless even when there is a perfect seal on the p10.


This is the post from another member that I was referring to who seemed to discover the same issue.

http://www.apneaboard.com/forums/Thread-...k-rate-off

[nightgagger]

I use the P30i and tape my mouth. When awake I can see my leak rate is around 6. I've never been able to get to 0 as well.

My range of pressure is 9 - 13. EPR 2.

What is your range of pressure and EPR? I wonder if the lower pressure has anything to do with it. In other words, the lower the pressure the better the seal/leak rate.

[ArcherNeedsSleep]

Reading that other thread - it appears that her issue was an ill fitting head strap or the wrong pillow size rather than an unidentified mask leak.  So I'm not sure it's the same issue as you're describing

To answer your particular question, I'm wondering if you have a leak in the short tube on the front of the P10 mask?  I keep mine covered with my hose wrap, but before I got the wrap I scraped it on the side of my nightstand regularly, and I could imagine it getting damaged enough to leak slightly.

Another thought is that one of the pillows isn't correctly aligned inside.  Sometimes when I wash my pillows and rinse them under running water, the inside layer gets turned inside out and it seems to prevent the pillow from fully sealing and therefore I'll have significant leaks until I pop it back into the correct shape.

Hope you can figure it out, whatever it is.  Please share if you do get to the bottom of it.

[GuyScharf]

Do you have the mask type set to "pillow" in your CPAP machine?

For an interesting experiment, try changing your mask type to something else and see if you still see the same leak rate.

[Michaely6]

Do you have the mask type set to "pillow" in your CPAP machine?

For an interesting experiment, try changing your mask type to something else and see if you still see the same leak rate.

Hi. 

Yes I tried all 3 mask settings with the same results unfortunately.

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Reading that other thread - it appears that her issue was an ill fitting head strap or the wrong pillow size rather than an unidentified mask leak.  So I'm not sure it's the same issue as you're describing

To answer your particular question, I'm wondering if you have a leak in the short tube on the front of the P10 mask?  I keep mine covered with my hose wrap, but before I got the wrap I scraped it on the side of my nightstand regularly, and I could imagine it getting damaged enough to leak slightly.

Another thought is that one of the pillows isn't correctly aligned inside.  Sometimes when I wash my pillows and rinse them under running water, the inside layer gets turned inside out and it seems to prevent the pillow from fully sealing and therefore I'll have significant leaks until I pop it back into the correct shape.

Hope you can figure it out, whatever it is.  Please share if you do get to the bottom of it.

Thank you for the reply. I tried this with a brand new p10 right out of the box because i thought maybe the short hose might be damaged however that wasn't the case as the same thing happened with the brand new p10. I'm just confused with this mask lol. The pillows are as perfectly aligned as they can be so i dont know but i will keep you all updated if i figure it out. Thanks again for your contribution to my question.

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I use the P30i and tape my mouth.  When awake I can see my leak rate is around 6.  I've never been able to get to 0 as well.

My range of pressure is 9 - 13.   EPR 2.

What is your range of pressure and EPR?  I wonder if the lower pressure has anything to do with it.  In other words, the lower the pressure the better the seal/leak rate.

The weird leaking occurs at any pressure level with any settings.

[sheepless]

post a chart. maybe there's a hint in the graphs.